SchoolWork

Because of a Teacher

Episode Summary

In this episode, we chat with George Couros. He’s an author and speaker with over 20 years of experience in education, and he's got lots of great stories. In his new book "Because of a Teacher" and in this podcast, George will make you laugh, cry, and think about your own journey in education.

Episode Transcription

Speaker 1 (00:03):

Hey friends. Welcome back to Schoolwork. This is episode two of Season two. Schoolwork is presented by Amarillo Independent School District. Today we got to talk to George Kiros. He is a, um, author and speaker, but before that he was a high school teacher who tried to be a kindergarten teacher and ended up an administrator. And then I first, um, became familiar with him when I read The Innovator's Mindset. And, um, really got a lot from that book. Then got to hear him speak. And using some of that same stuff in my classroom has really helped me reach kids in a brand new way. And so we hope you take something away from this conversation too. So here we go. So where are you coming from today? 

Speaker 2 (00:51):

Uh, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. So I'm, I'm just at home. I, yeah. You're just at home? Yeah. And I have my own podcast, so I got all the equipment and stuff, so, 

Speaker 1 (00:59):

Right. I listen to your podcast. I read your books. Oh, good. I wish 

Speaker 2 (01:02):

You that. You're the, you and my mom, 

Speaker 1 (01:05):

Whatever. I don't believe that at all. Basically. 

Speaker 2 (01:06):

That's it. Yeah. 

Speaker 1 (01:08):

. I, I, for some reason, I don't think that then, 

Speaker 2 (01:10):

You know, the buttons. Right. You know, like the special. I can do shadows if you want. You know, you've heard, have you heard like the 

Speaker 1 (01:16):

Yes. Your friend? Yes. All your friend 

Speaker 2 (01:21):

Buttons. If you say the word, shout out. You know, that's 

Speaker 1 (01:23):

Happened. So that's, that's coming. It is, it is coming. So, Alberta, Canada, I 

Speaker 2 (01:27):

Have like 80 buttons on here, but that's the only one I press. . 

Speaker 1 (01:30):

Well, how would you know all those other buttons? I, you just sit and play with them? Actually, 

Speaker 2 (01:34):

It's, it's actually on a screen. Like I can see all of them. 

Speaker 1 (01:36):

Yeah. 

Speaker 2 (01:37):

But I do, I just love that one. . 

Speaker 1 (01:39):

So tell me, how'd you end up here? Tell me a little bit, like 62nd version of your educational journey to get here. Is 

Speaker 2 (01:46):

This, is this like actually on the podcast right now? Or are we just 

Speaker 1 (01:49):

This, everything. Yep. All of it. 

Speaker 2 (01:51):

Yeah. I just, I was just making sure. 

Speaker 1 (01:52):

Yeah. So, 

Speaker 2 (01:53):

Uh, so the 62nd version, I actually, uh, didn't wanna be a teacher. I didn't know what I wanted to do. Went to university because parents forced me to go, had a degree that, um, I thought was useless to me. So I saw a movie, changed my life. It was Billy Madison. That's a legitimately true story. I saw Billy Madison. I'm like, I wanna be a teacher now. So that looks fun. And, uh, yeah. Uh, wanted to be a kindergarten teacher. Applied for a kindergarten job. Nailed the interview, and got a high school computer, uh, position out of it. for whatever reason. And, and then, uh, because I knew like probably, uh, like 1% about technology, but that was like 1% more than, uh, the school that I went to at the time, 

Speaker 1 (02:33):

The next mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 2 (02:34):

. And so, uh, that led me to like, oh, like you, you're good with technology 'cause you taught high school technology. We want you to lead this technic initiative in my first year. So I was like the tech coordinator in my first year of teaching outta school. Wow. And then just, yeah, just progressed and, yeah. And then, you know, eventually, basically I've taught, uh, the only grade I actually have not taught is kindergarten, which was the goal, 

Speaker 1 (02:56):

Which was where you wanted to be. 

Speaker 2 (02:58):

Yeah. So I taught grade one to 12, vice principal, principal, uh, worked in central office. And then, uh, I had the opportunity to basically, I started tweeting about stuff we were doing in my school. Mm-hmm. . And people were like, that's really cool, right? Uh, you should come speak at our school. I'm like, what are you talking about? And they're like, no, you should speak. I'm like, okay. And they said, what's your fee? I'm like, you're gonna pay me to speak ? That's kind of cool. I didn't know that. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, I've been blo, I started blogging years ago. Uh, just the only reason I started Blogger was not like, yeah, I want everyone to know my thoughts. It was like, Hey, like, is this actually helpful to kids? And it, like, the only way I'll know is if I try, try and figure this out. 

Speaker 2 (03:33):

Mm-hmm. and I understand in from viewpoint of learner, and the blog turned into, you know, the tweets turn into a blog. The blog turned into multiple books. The books turn into a publishing company. So, yeah, I just, you know, I continuously learn, uh, and, and try to grow in whatever I do. So I, I really think, uh, we talk about learning a lot in the, the essence of education, but I think, uh, if we're doing our job, we see how it facilitates so many facets of our life and just how we grow, you know, with our families, uh, you know, with our mental and physical wellbeing, you know, with their school. So I don't, I don't tell anyone how to teach. It's not ever my focus. But I do, uh, I do have a lot of thoughts on learning. And I think 

Speaker 1 (04:14):

You do, and you share those in your book a lot. Like, there's so many ideas, um, especially even using the technology in your classroom. So you are, or we are preparing these kiddos for what it really looks like out in the real world. Um, my friend and I across the hall, we're letting our kids, you know, try to try their hand at blogging based off of stuff that we read in your book as well. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. And it's been like, it's pretty exciting. 'cause they get excited about it. It's a different, you know, medium for them to get to share what they know. And you, you say in your book, um, you talk about how as teachers, we need to always be growing and learning. What's a book you're reading right now? 

Speaker 2 (04:56):

What's a book in world? 

Speaker 1 (04:57):

Yeah. Or do you have a stat that's 

Speaker 2 (04:59):

A spot? Yeah. Uh, I actually, the, the book I, I'm like notoriously bad, bad for this. I, well, I don't know if it's bad. I reread books all the time. So, um, the, the book that I am reading is right in front of me. It's actually called The Paradox of Success. And it's actually, uh, focused, it's not an education book. It talks about, um, how we can really get comfortable with, you know, being in good places that we think. And that comfort sometimes leads to failure. And you, like, you think about that in the context of education. Uh, a lot of times we will be really happy 'cause we'll be at a school and our test scores are really good, but it doesn't mean our kids are really good learners. And I think a lot of kids walk outta school being amazing test takers, but not necessarily learning how to adapt and thinking about that. 

Speaker 2 (05:48):

And so you see, if a school is struggling, has low test scores, uh, a lot of times people are more willing to try different things. Mm-hmm. . But sometimes when you think about this and like, you know, some of our high achieving, and when I say the term high achieving, I mean the ones that have good academic scores. But that's, that's, that's not necessarily high achieving. That's just the perception of it. Because I, I really believe that some of the smartest kids in our school struggle academically. And, and then we say like, Hey, um, we wanna try some new stuff. And they're like, why are we trying new stuff? Look at our test scores. 

Speaker 1 (06:23):

Right? 

Speaker 2 (06:24):

Right. Mm-hmm. . And then we become comfortable with this mm-hmm. . And there's so many different factors, um, to why kids do well in exams. Mm-hmm. . And yeah, of course teaching will have some aspect of it, but if it was like a hundred percent solely of what we do in teaching, then you should be able to go to any school in the world and get the same results. 

Speaker 1 (06:44):

Right. Right, 

Speaker 2 (06:45):

Right. And so I think, you know, I try to, I, I like to kinda reread and see, um, how I've grown, how I look at something different. Uh, one of the books I read probably once every six months is called The How to Win Friends and Influence People. 

Speaker 1 (06:57):

Yep. Read that. It's a great one. And 

Speaker 2 (06:59):

It's a, it's a fantastic book, but it was all, it's also a book that's timeless. It was, I think written in the 1930s. I had only read it like five years ago. And I was like, this is like, so relevant. And then I looked at it, I was like, oh, this is like, written, like when my dad was born . And, uh, and just kind of thinking about that, not only for, um, the terms of publishing as I, as I mentioned, uh, we have a publishing company. It's one of the things that we always talk about for advice with our, with our authors, is that you should try to write a book that if I picked it up in 15 years, it'd still be relevant to education. Mm-hmm. . And you know, like, obviously there's things that, you know, change, but like, what are some of the universal truths that, that don't change? 

Speaker 2 (07:41):

And I think that's actually an important concept with education. You know, I obviously, I talk a lot about innovation. You mentioned the book, um, innovator's Mindset, which is probably the one I'm I'm most known for. Uh, but I actually think a lot of people think they're innovative because they're always trying the newest thing. Right. And, but then we're never really good at it. 'cause we move on to the next newest thing mm-hmm. and people are like, can we just, you know, have like five minutes with the last thing that you said? Yes. Like, can we just, you know, dig into this? Yes. So I, uh, I really try to look at not the newest technologies, but how do we actually really go deep with some of the stuff that we've, you know, been advocating for several years? Because there's always gonna be something new. And if you, if you always, it's kind of like we have attention deficit in education. Mm-hmm. , it's like next. Right. 

Speaker 1 (08:29):

What's the next thing? We gotta move on before we really get good at. So what do you think the next, the, in 15 years, what's gonna be most relevant in education? 

Speaker 2 (08:38):

Well, I actually get asked this question all the time, and my answer's all the same. And there will be the same in 15 years, which is, which is the point, I don't know. And neither do you, and neither does anyone listen to this podcast. And I think that's what we have to really identify. Uh, what, what I do know is that we have to teach kids, and this is kind of going back to why I really focus on learning, is that no matter what comes our way, we'll be able to figure it out. And that that is ultimately what we need to teach kids. Like, nobody predicted Covid. Right, right, 

Speaker 2 (09:10):

Right. Virtual teaching, nobody predicted iPads and Chromebooks everywhere, right? Mm-hmm. . Right. And you might have seen it coming, but probably, um, when some people saw it coming, it was already in some schools and kind of having that idea. But you saw, um, and you still see people that were able to deal with a lot of the transitions that in education were people that were really good at learning. Were really good at kind of figuring things out on the fly. Mm-hmm. . And there is, there is somewhat of a co-relation with use of technology. And I think that's, you know, um, I, like I mentioned earlier, I did a little bit of technology stuff earlier on in my career. Mm-hmm. , which is a lot at that stuff. And because I, uh, I actually had to teach a technology class to high school students. Like, and I'm a trained kindergarten teacher, and I didn't know anything. 

Speaker 2 (10:05):

I was in there. So I would like go to the students. I'm like, uh, hey, does anyone know how to do this thing? Does anyone know this? And, or, you know, and some kids were like, I, you know, I know. And then that always like changed my perspective, like on like, Hey, like, let's actually utilize the brilliance in this class. Not like I'm the only expert here. There's stuff obviously I knew, but the other thing with it is that we'd be using a program one day and we'd be following like a paper module, and then there was an update, and then what do you do? Right? Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. , I've been teaching, you know, I teach like, Hey, let's, let's, uh, we're gonna, you know, go through a Google form, utilize some stuff, go into the session, you know, 30 minutes after I prep for it. 

Speaker 2 (10:44):

And then Google Forms gets an update and you're in front of a bunch of people. Right. And, and what, and I have no issue with that because I'm like, all right, well, you know how I learned in the first place. I started pressing buttons, so I figured it out. And I think that's that kind of notion of the ability to press buttons, to see what happens is something we have to instill in the adults have to instill in the kids. So the, the whole, like, what's the next thing? The thing that always should matter is that we're developing kids who can figure stuff out, and we model that as adults. And that, that is something that I try to strive to do. Like I, I'll try new things. Uh, and I constantly try to reinvent some of the learning that I'm doing. And because I want to, it's not because I want to stay relevant. It's, it's because things change. The, like, it's because you just have, that's the only way relevance is just keeping 

Speaker 1 (11:34):

Up, keeping up. Right. And, and not being scared to fail. Also, such a big, you know, even in front of your kids. So what was, what was you, the kindergarten teacher, like that very first year when you wanted to be a kindergarten teacher, how has that, you know, changed not what you wanted, but getting put somewhere else? 

Speaker 2 (11:57):

Um, I, I, I, I swore that I would never teach high school. And then, and then I talked to my cooperating teacher who like, you know, I, I think it's like my student teaching partner 

Speaker 1 (12:09):

Right here, I don't know 

Speaker 2 (12:10):

Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And I said, Hey, I got offered this high school job. Like, what do you think? She's like, it's super hard to get a job. So I would, I would take anything, take your foot in the door. Right? Yeah. So I'm like, all right. So I accepted the job and I was like, oh, this is gonna, this is gonna be terrible. And then I was like, oh, I kinda like working with these students. Right. And then, you know, then I got elementary for a couple years, and then, uh, then I went back to high school. And then, uh, someone's like, Hey, do you wanna do like, uh, be assistant principal at a middle school? I'm like, I don't wanna teach middle school kids. I'm like, oh, these kids are kind of interesting too. So I think for me, um, I, I, I always try to look for the opportunity. 

Speaker 2 (12:53):

I, I, I guess that's something that, you know, I talk a lot about my parents. My parents were immigrants to Canada. Uh, didn't have much, didn't have much opportunity. And they just found opportunities where other people saw obstacles. So I just always kinda looked like, Hey, this is, this is a good opportunity for me. And, uh, yeah. Like, I actually really like working with these kids and, you know, like a lot of the high school jokes didn't land with the kindergarten kids and vice versa. Mm-hmm. . So you kinda adjust to those things. But I think at all levels, if you, there's, there's some elements of like, where I really believe good teaching is good teaching. It doesn't matter the grade level. But I, I do know that, um, it is relationships matter at all levels. And it's harder to do at the high school level because we deal with so many kids within a day. Whereas at elementary level, you work with the same class. Um, but it's no less important. You have to build that. And I just saw every time that an opportunity was brought to me that I would say, okay, how is this help? How will this help me grow? Right. How will this help me get better? 

Speaker 1 (13:55):

Right. So, 

Speaker 2 (13:56):

So yeah. Like I've never, I've never, um, I've never hated an opportunity that I've got to, to do something. Right. So, you know, and that's, but, but I will try to evolve and move on and do something new. Well, 

Speaker 1 (14:09):

That's, well, that's a place that you get to grow. You say in your book, meaningful change happens when you connect with people's hearts. And you mentioned a few people, few teachers in your, in your book that even tweeted you back. I loved that. That was so cool. In your, in your new book, because of a teacher mm-hmm. , pick one of those. What, which one of those would probably be your most influential? Tell us a story about 'em. Like what, what made that teacher 

Speaker 2 (14:36):

As a, as a student or as a educator? 

Speaker 1 (14:39):

As a student, and then also as an educator. 

Speaker 2 (14:42):

Oh. Like, I can't say one as a student. And I feel really blessed to be able to say that. I could not say one. 'cause I know that some could only say one. And I know some can't say any, which is a massive issue. Mm-hmm. . And, uh, I think that for me is one of the things that really drives me is that it shouldn't be just like, I, I don't, I know this is gonna challenge a lot of people. Uh, there's a quote and it basically says like, every person should have at least one adult that's like, crazy about them in education. And I'm like, that's a, that's a long . That's 12 years and only one of them like you. Like, that's a lot. That's a lot of time. Mm-hmm. . So really, it should be all of us advocates for all of our kids. 

Speaker 2 (15:21):

And, you know, going over way, like I've always said, um, you know, when I taught middle school and we had an elementary, you know, elementary classes, I would go, you know, talk to elementary kids and connect with them and vice versa, you know, and seeing supervision opportunity to connect with kids, you might not teach that year. Uh, so like I could say, uh, my kindergarten teacher, uh, Mrs. Stock really kind of started me off and loving school right away. She was amazing. Uh, my grade three teacher, who also is my kindergarten grade eight music teacher, Cindy Penrose, uh, she gave me an ability to have a presence on stage and really kind of develop that. And she actually wrote in my grade eight report card, like, you'll be on a stage one day. I, I said that, I think she thought I'd be singing, but I hit puberty. So my voice changed. And, uh, so I don't think she expected, you know, being, doing Zoom sessions, but still, 

Speaker 1 (16:09):

But you're still on stage. 

Speaker 2 (16:10):

Yeah. And, uh, Calvin Hobbes, that is his name. And Calvin Hobbes was my phys ed coach, who was also my, or my phys ed teacher, who was also my football coach. And, uh, I was a pretty cocky grade 12 kid, and he was new to the school. And I saw him on the very first day. Uh, he came to school. He actually told me this yesterday. I didn't know that. 'cause I still talk to him. And he said I was the first student he met at that school. And, and like, the first day, and I'm like, pretty big. I'm six foot four. Uh, I played football and I went to him. I said, oh, you're, you're the new coach. Um, I've been playing football for four years on this team, so kind of expecting to be captain. He is like, is that right, ? I'm like, well, I have been here four years. 

Speaker 2 (16:48):

You've been here for four minutes. So I kind of expect that. And he is like, all right, we'll see what happens. And then, uh, and then he, he would announce captains. He would announce captains. And then, uh, there's, there's typically more than one captain on a football team. So there's gonna be announced, I think five. And, uh, he announced four of them. And then he saved me for fifth. Uh, 'cause he wanted to struggle with me. And he said, you did not get captain because you told me you're gonna be captain. You got captain, uh, because you earned it. And don't ever, uh, don't ever think that you are worthy of leading. You have to be someone worth following. And that's what you proved here. And I will tell you this straight up. Um, when I was in grade 12, I was like, I don't care what you said, I'm captain. 

Speaker 2 (17:34):

Like, that's all that matters to me at this moment. Right. And then I think years later, it, it really, that lesson resonated with me. Uh, so he's, he's someone I've connected with quite a bit. But I could also tell you, and I, I share this story often. Uh, Mr. Rki was our, uh, elementary custodian. And, uh, I talked to that gentleman every single day. And I could tell you straight up, I don't think I've ever seen, I ever saw him clean the school . So I know he was a custodian. I just never saw him clean the school. But the school was like meticulously clean. And part of the reason is because we all love Mr. Rki so much. He didn't mess with the school. Right, right. Because you love the custodian. So there's like so many people in our, uh, you know, our K 12 experience that don't necessarily teach who have a tremendous impact. And I think, yeah, I was, and I could, you know, I could go on and on and talk about, you know, I could also talk about some teachers that, you know, wasn't too excited about and for different reasons. And, uh, but I'm pretty lucky. I was blessed with so many great teachers that I, like, I can name every teacher I ever had, uh, kindergarten grade 12, every grade. 

Speaker 1 (18:38):

Wow. That's impressive. That's impressive. What about teachers?

Speaker 2 (18:41):

I don't think, I don't think it is. 'cause I think it, I, but when other people say they can't, then I'm like, oh, that's weird. Like, I actually think it's weird the other way. 

Speaker 1 (18:47):

The other way around. Yeah. Well, and I, but I, it shouldn't that be, shouldn't that be a goal as an educator? That you want to be remembered and that we want our kids to look back and go, I had relationship, I had these, these teachers really cared about me and, and wanted me to grow and learn and pushed me and, and, and fought for me in, in all the ways. I mean, 'cause it's not just what are we teaching, but it's, you know, it's so much bigger than just that content that you're teaching in your classroom, but building those relationships. Um, I loved that about your book, both, both of them, the Innovator's Mindset and because of a teacher. 'cause you talk about how important that connection with that heart is to really getting the kids to, to learn. I want you to tell a story that you told in your book that I loved. Uh, I just, I went back and read it several times about when you were kind of disillusioned with, with teaching and you were looking for something different. Yeah. So I just want, I, I've read that several times and I, because I think there's, I know for me there's moments where that is exactly where I'm at. It's, this is hard work we're doing. And so tell us about that. 

Speaker 2 (19:58):

Yeah. So I was, um, probably I think in my seventh year of teaching. And, and, uh, I wasn't, it wasn't necess like it wasn't a bad school. It wasn't bad leadership wasn't any of those things. Uh, I would say it was partly where I lived. I lived in a very small town and, uh, be totally honest, I was a single guy and I'm like, uh, I'm gonna die alone. So that's not something I'm excited about if I stay here. So that was a, a, a bit of a struggle. So, you know, like outright staying, there's like some loneliness there. Being in this, this very small town, not, you know, everyone I knew was married and I was on my own. Uh, but also I just didn't really love, um, what I was teaching. I, I felt that, uh, there's a disconnect between what I wanted to do and what I was doing. 

Speaker 2 (20:51):

So, uh, I tried and tried to get out of that school into another, uh, school district and had a really hard time and just a, a, a string of events led me to, to, um, another school. I basically went there on. Uh, so took someone's maternity leave for a year, and I just said, I'm gonna give myself one year and see how it goes. And basically, uh, within, uh, maybe a month, I totally changed. I had totally changed my, my attitude towards education. And it was, there's, there's two reasons, and I'm gonna give myself some credit to be honest with you. And I think that this is a really important thing for people to say, uh, to hear is when I went to this new school, I did reinvent myself. And I think when I first went to the, the school I was at prior, I was like, eh, whatever. 

Speaker 2 (21:45):

Like, you know, teaching's a job. I'm not really interested in it. And then as, uh, I, you know, got got older and, you know, got more involved, I tried to reinvent myself. But everyone saw me as first year George, not fifth year George, if that makes sense, at that school. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. Absolutely. And so I kind of felt like they're never gonna see me mm-hmm. as, you know, leadership material or, you know, the, you know, different opportunities. So I did say like, Hey, I, you know, what's beautiful about this? I have a blank slate. I can, I can be whoever I want, and that's what I'm gonna do. So, you know, really, and like for me, it was like little things. Like I wore a tie every day. I know that's not, like, that doesn't make you a good teacher, but it was like, it was like a, it was like a uniform for me. 

Speaker 2 (22:27):

Like, this is your, this is you getting in, you know, into that mentality right away. And, uh, just, just really trying to think about how I present to myself, my attitude towards, uh, the profession. And, uh, coin, uh, coinciding with that was, we had a, I had a new principal. Her name was Kelly Wilkin. She was new to me, not new, uh, in the school district by any means. And she just saw things in me that I didn't even know were there. And she just brought out, uh, stuff that I didn't know. And she just was so, uh, artistic with it. She just, I would literally be in the middle of doing something and that I would hate doing. And I'd be smiling, like, have the biggest smile on my face. I'm like, how did she get me to do this? Like, like, I would do anything for this woman. 

Speaker 2 (23:16):

Mm-hmm. . Like, she's incredible. But she just, um, like I, I'll give you a, like a a little example of this. So they wanted me to lead, um, basically work with staff on like, um, really kind of thinking about how we use technology in the classroom. So I got there and she gave me a schedule and she's like, Hey, you're gonna be with grade five for like, this period, then grade six with this period, and then grade seven with this period. So you're gonna get like 40 minutes. You're gonna do that, you know, you 40 minutes of time, you might see these kids like once a week kind of thing. Right. And so I, I looked at the schedule and I kind of was like, ah, you know, I got one year I got, you know, I'm, I'm probably gonna quit. So I don't, I think this, I don't like the schedule, so I'm gonna go say something to her. 

Speaker 2 (24:00):

And I said, you know, if we're really gonna do this, right? Me seeing these kids once in a while, like by the time, you know, I see them the next week, they're gonna forget what we did that 40 minutes prior. I'm not a big fan of the schedule. And she's like, well, what do you think would be a better schedule? I'm like, well, I do actually think it'd be great if I could just work with one class for like a couple weeks. We could really go deep into something. I could work with the teacher directly. I could go right into the curriculum. And she's like, yeah, I think that's awesome. I'm like, are you serious? And, and like she, I'm like, I'm there for like three days and I'm already making my own schedule. And I said, Hey, this is like a little weird for me that you're, you're doing this. 

Speaker 2 (24:39):

She said, well, we hired you because you were the one that's good with technology. I don't know how to do any of this stuff. So why would I tell you how to do it? Like, why don't you figure it out and you tell me what you think is the best way and we can see it, make it happen. And so that, that to me really started changing my perspective. 'cause it was always like, I just showed up and did what I was told, but now all of a sudden there's like an ownership. And like, the thing with, when you, when someone gives you ownership, you want things to work. Because if it's like, partly your decision being that's made there, you want that decision to do well. But when it's like, you know, I could have easily just stuck with a schedule so it didn't work and say, well, that was Kelly's fault, because that's the stupid schedule she gave me. 

Speaker 2 (25:20):

So you, now you're, I'm not like, okay, I gotta, I gotta make sure this is like, like I'm validating what I said we should do. And, and so kind of part of that, like, even like, you know, I was a teacher and she asked me like, what, what do you think we should spend on the budget? I'm like, why are you asking me? She's like, 'cause you're the tech guy. So like, I don't know this stuff. Why would I just tell you what, why would I just give you a bunch of stuff that I don't understand and say, go make stuff happen. Tell me what you need. So then all of a sudden I'm like, Hey, so I'm making the decision, so I'm gonna make a bad decision. I know how teachers get mad, so I gotta make sure that I'm like talking to teachers and getting their input and getting their feedback and stuff like that too. 

Speaker 2 (25:56):

So I went from, uh, basically I'm gonna quit, um, at, you know, at the end of one year. And then a year later, uh, I had an assistant principal job and in the same school district. And I, you would've, if you would've asked me at the beginning of the year, do you see yourself going to admit, I'm like, I don't see myself in education for another six months. And it was truly because of, uh, Kelly's influence. And I still talk to her, talked to her this morning. Uh, she's retired. She's just incredible. And my goal, I think, is to be that person. Kelly was for me to as many people as possible. And if I can have like 100th of the impact she has had, uh, on the lives of others, then I'm, I I would say I've been pretty successful as an educator. And yeah. And that's like, that would be that too. But like I said, I took advantage of that leader. 

Speaker 1 (26:47):

Yeah. You can't, you can't be passive in it Right. At all you to own. Sometimes we get 

Speaker 2 (26:51):

Mm-hmm. , we get incredible opportunities like that. And then we stay doing what we did before. And we're like, why? Like, it's really easy to, you know, say like, well, this didn't happen because of A, B, and C. It's like, well, you do have some responsibility here. You do have some accountability to this. Right? So, so, you know, I, like, I, I also, I could tell you this straight up, uh, that if I didn't do a good job, she would've got rid of me. That that would've been it. And like, because her focus, which is mine, is like, I'm gonna do whatever. I'm not, if I don't think this is gonna work for kids, then 

Speaker 1 (27:28):

You're not gonna do it 

Speaker 2 (27:30):

Then, then I'll find someone else who will be better for kids. Mm-hmm. . Yeah. And that is something I, I respect. Right. In her. Right. 

Speaker 1 (27:36):

Well she saw that in you. She saw the gold that you didn't even see at the time. Yeah. Yeah. And pulled it out and then gave you a voice in the process of it. That's totally, that's, that's, so that's really cool. And I think it's interesting 'cause your story about the administ getting the administrator job and going into that interview you did use your voice. Right. Right, right. And I think that's a great story too, because you used your voice, but you learned a really cool lesson out of it as well. And so I think that's a good, like a good thing to point out is that lesson you learned in using your voice, and we don't all have to agree in order to make some amazing changes in education. 

Speaker 2 (28:16):

You, you actually like legitimately read my book. 

Speaker 1 (28:18):

Yes, sir. Impressed. I certainly did. . 

Speaker 2 (28:20):

I love it. Alright, well what did you think of it so far? 

Speaker 1 (28:22):

I loved it. I think it's, I think it's timely. I think that, um, educators need to remember, especially after, you know, the last 18 months, they need to remember. 'cause it's hard right now. I mean, COVID was hard, but it's hard right now too. 

Speaker 2 (28:37):

It was to, it was totally. It was. And I, um, I know that you read this, it was totally exactly what you're saying. Mm-hmm. , like, it was like, Hey, this people are getting crapped on. Right. I, I I wanna do something that, you know, just honors people. 

Speaker 1 (28:50):

Right. And, and I mean, I think you, the compilation of the stories and I mean, I've sat and cried through several of the good chapters. I know that's probably what you wanted, right. , that you wanted to evoke that in my, my 

Speaker 2 (29:03):

Laugh or I think that was best. 

Speaker 1 (29:04):

That's right. But, uh, but I mean, even just hearing some of those stories and going, Ew, I, I do do that and my classroom, and even though we don't so often hear it, we are still making those, you know, those changes in our, in our kids. And I don't know, it's good to hear the good stuff. And it's good to hear things that aren't, Hey, this is your list of things you should do to catch up or to be a better educator. But like, hey, you're, you're good where you are. You engage where you are and love these kids in a time that's really hard. And so, yeah, I laughed and I cried and cried some more 

Speaker 2 (29:40):

. Good. That, that's what I hope. And, and going back to the story, um, when I became an assistant principal, yes. I actually applied to a, I applied for a, well, actually, what I wanted to do, and what I thought I was gonna do was I was going to lead like technology initiatives at the district level. Uh, that was kind of the goal. And, uh, I, there was an assistant principal job that opened up in the middle of summer. So basically anyone who wants to be an administrator is either, probably got their job mm-hmm. for that year. Yep. Or on vacation . And I'm not doing anything right. So I'm like, oh, I, you know, I'll throw my name in this so that people know I'm interested in leadership. 'cause I'm like, God, I don't want to be assistant principal. I have no interest in that. 

Speaker 2 (30:27):

Right. And, uh, but I want people to know, like, hey, I'm interested in, in going into like, formal leadership. So the reason I mentioned like, you know, it's middle of the summer is 'cause I don't think anyone, I don't think many people applied. Like it probably wasn't, like, I probably kind of got through to the interview Uhhuh , uh, because there was just so few people at the time. Right. So I got a, I got an interview there probably like, well, you know, let's see what this guy does because, you know, not many people are applying. So, uh, I actually, uh, got an interview, got in there, you know, had a really nice formal welcome. And, uh, probably about five minutes in I started fighting with the principal and we were like yelling at each other, going at back and forth. And he was like, really in my face. 

Speaker 2 (31:08):

And I, I'm 10, like, if you get in my face, I'll, you know, I, I can push back. And, uh, like I could, like, I even just talking about it, like, I kind of visualized like I was sweating. Like it was just really weird. And, uh, yeah, like if I didn't agree with something, I, I challenged him. And so the, the interview, I remember actually the head of HR who, you know, I got to know very well later on when I was an admin, uh, she just kind of sat there and I was like, can you, like, can somebody help me here? Like, what is going on? Right. She just didn't say anything. She just kind of let us go. And, uh, and then we, uh, interview ended and, you know, kind of like, kind of calmed down and it was like, okay, well hey, thanks for the opportunity. 

Speaker 2 (31:49):

It was like, it's, the way I expressed it in the book is like, it's like when you have a, a really bad date and you know you're never gonna see each other again. It was like that kind of goodbye. Like it was Yeah. Like, I'm done, right? Yeah. That, that was, that was, that was nice. Well, you know, maybe I'll call you kind of thing and, uh, and so yeah, about two days. So I, uh, I, I, uh, talked to Kelly, who was my principal at the time, who encouraged me to go for it, even though it would've been her losing a teacher in the middle of summer. And she'd had to, you know, hire or replace someone to me. She was like, yeah, this is a go for this, right? So I told her, and she's like, no, no, no, that, and his name is Archie. 

Speaker 2 (32:27):

He's a very good friend of mine to this day. Uh, I said, this was like a weird experience. He's like, she's like, just, that's Archie, just don't even worry about it. You, you probably did way better than you think. I'm like, it was horrible. And then he called me and I thought it was like, you know, just the nice, Hey, you didn't get the job, but thanks for applying. And she, she's like, yeah, like, I wanna hire you for the job. I'm like, what are you talking about? He is like, he said, out all the people that I interviewed, you're the only one who challenged me. And basically, uh, what I would appreciate is someone who doesn't just tell me I'm doing the right thing, who doesn't just agree with everything I say, I need someone who pushes me because my job is to do what's best for kids. 

Speaker 2 (33:09):

And I think sometimes what people will do, because I'm the principal, they'll just tell me I'm right. 'cause they don't want, you know, they don't want to get into that. And so I need someone to challenge me. And so I need you to be that for me. But I am ultimately responsible for the decisions of the school. So like, if something goes wrong, the superintendent doesn't call you, they call me. Right. So if we go at it and have that conversation, and I say, I, I, I don't agree. We have to go this, you have to back me up because we can't have like a, a split team here. You, you gotta back me up. At the end of the day, we can hash it out. And maybe there's, you know, and, uh, I I, I can say this, and Archie you would probably say, I, I'm being honest with you, anytime I challenged him, he always went my way any single time. 

Speaker 2 (33:59):

But I didn't always challenge him, right? Mm-hmm. . And I think that it was, it, it was because like when I challenged him, he knew there was something a little bit off. Right? Right, right. And I maybe saw something he didn't see mm-hmm. . And it wasn't like he said, A and I said Z. I'm like, uh, I think you need to do B. Right? Like, it, like it's kind of okay, but you need to think about these couple things too. Right. So it was just kind of just being thoughtful of that. And, uh, yeah, we were a great team and it, that's how it was. And then, so weirdly enough, and I, I don't think I told this story in the book. So we're this new team together. He's the new principal. I'm the new assistant principal. So it's a brand new admin team to the school. 

Speaker 2 (34:42):

So we don't know anybody about each other. Right. And we've had like a couple lunches together to get to know each other. So we go on, we go in the first day and, uh, we are making the schedule for the staff, right? And we were having meetings with the staff trying to understand. So we're just trying to like, you know, the schedule wasn't done. There's, you know, a whole bunch of other things that were, were going on. And, uh, one of the teachers came in and, uh, all of a sudden her and I are fighting. Right. And I don't know if you've ever seen that TikTok is like, is it me? Like, am I the drama? Like that was what was going on, right? Because I'm like, I am the, I'm like getting in fights with everybody, right? So her and I are going at it, and I was like, fuming mad about this. 

Speaker 2 (35:22):

And Archie said, you know, I don't, I don't think she was really that off. I think there's just a little miscommunication. But I, I, I know I know of her and I know she's a really good teacher. I'm like, all right. And like, we had a cordial relat relationship. And as I got to know her name's Cheryl, uh, Cheryl Johnson. And, uh, obviously I'm saying her name because this story turns out positive, right? If it was like, no, she's terrible. her name. You know, I wouldn't say her name. So, uh, so her and I would have some, you know, would go at it every now and then. And, uh, we would, sometimes we would say like, Hey, we wanna, we want to try this new thing in our school. We wanna like do this. So we'd, we'd call Cheryln and we're like, Hey Cheryl, what do you think of this? 

Speaker 2 (36:08):

And she's like, nah, I don't like it. Well, why? Okay, so this is a problem. This is a problem. This is an issue. I'm like, give a week. So then, uh, we'd go through all of Sheryl's feedback and then we'd say, okay, Cheryll, we listened to what you said. We modified it. What do you think? We presented this to staff. She's like, I love it. And then we'd say like, Hey, we wanna do this thing. Here's what we think. And then Sheryl go up. I love it. Well, of course she loved it 'cause she like made up 90% of it, right? So, so now the teachers are listening to their colleague, who I know has influence. So, uh, about two years after getting an assistant principal job, I got assigned for a principal. And who do you think I actually went to become? My assistant principal was Cheryl the person who did the same thing for me that I did for Archie. 

Speaker 2 (36:48):

Right. And she knew how like, and I was like, we don't agree on everything and, but I know you know that we're both here to do what's best for kids. I need you to see things that I don't see. And I think she was actually, uh, she was probably, you know, year 20 ish, 25 maybe, of her teaching career. And I was, you know, I was pretty young, uh, in my teaching career. And so she had way more teaching experience than me. And I felt that she, she, I know this sounds weird, she appealed to other people who maybe wouldn't feel comfortable talking to me. Right. So I felt that, you know, people would see her and say like, I feel way more comfortable talking to Cheryl than I do George. And some would be the opposite. And so that was to me, and I think a lot of people thought I would hire like a George clone, like somebody, you know, who is like young, young guy kind of thing. 

Speaker 2 (37:37):

It's like, no, I don't, I don't need that. I already got me like mm-hmm. . Like, I don't need another, I I don't need another George. I already got one. Okay. I need someone who's different, who has a different perspective. And so that, that really shaped, um, the way that I look at things. And I'm really big on the notion of challenge. I think challenge is really important. What I don't like is when it's done in a rude, uh, manner. And, uh, when, when, like I, the both the conversations, uh, I could tell you with Archie and Cheryl never got personal. They were never, it was always about ideas. I think it is very crucial to challenge ideas, but when you start actually doing personal things, that's a whole different way of, and I see that, unfortunately, I see that a lot in education. I see a lot on social media. 

Speaker 2 (38:21):

I see a lot with, you know, our communities together. And I think that, um, having, uh, you know, having challenges have, you know, focusing on doing what's best for kids, really important. But we have to be respectful in that manner. That was something that, you know, and maybe if you watch the conversations I used to have with Archie, uh, you wouldn't necessarily think they were respectful. But Archie and I were like brothers after a while, do you know what I mean? Right. So the way him and I could talk, because we just knew, you know, we would just, you know, we'd have fun and we'd joke around and people were like, are you two okay? And we're like, oh yeah, 

Speaker 1 (38:55):

Like, we're good. This is normal. 

Speaker 2 (38:56):

That was just, that was just how we, that was just how we talked to each other and, you know, but that wasn't like over, you know, it was like every person we have a different relationship with, you feel more comfortable with one conversations like that too. So I think that, um, that focus on challenge, uh, is something that's really important to me is that we have people with different experiences, different, uh, you know, viewpoints on things. But as long as we're both all focused on moving forward for kids, because I think a lot of times when you look at challenge in education, uh, and you kind of break it down, it's like, uh, it's, it's not about kids sometimes about ego. And uh, for me it was always like, okay, my focus on doing what's best for kids. And if I challenge in that, that's what's my center, then I, then I can go to sleep at night. Mm-hmm. , that, that is my focus. Mm-hmm. . Right. And so, and I, that, that's who I surrounded myself with, even though we didn't have the same viewpoints on a lot of different things. 

Speaker 1 (39:49):

But those different perspectives are so important. 'cause we only see out of what our experiences are. And so it, I I, I think that's why I love that story so much because so many times we get stuck in our status quo and, and we're, we don't ever move out of it because we aren't willing to take the feedback and, and grow and continue being learners in that, in that vein of continuing to teach as well. So yeah. I mean that, yeah. And 

Speaker 2 (40:20):

Actually when I, when I do a lot of sessions, I say to them, like, when I, y'all talks or some content, and then I'll say, okay, let's, let's, let's, I wanna know what you wanna know, right? So like, let me know if you have any questions, uh, you know, anything you want me to show you, but also let me know if you want have any challenges mm-hmm. . Right. And the one thing I would say is, do not challenge me in the parking lot with your colleague when I'm gone. That doesn't help anything. Right. Like, do it in the room. Mm-hmm. , like, if you don't, don't agree with something, I said, tell me, tell me what's going on because maybe I, maybe I miscommunicated it. Maybe I'm totally off because I see this as an opportunity for me to learn from you as well. 

Speaker 2 (40:58):

Mm-hmm. . And I'll tell you, like when I, I can go through, like, when I, when I do a talk, there's like little moments I'm like, oh yeah, I remember when that person pushed me on this, and this is why I say this different now. Oh, I remember that conversation I had, this is why I say this thing's different. Right. Right. And I like, I, I kind of model that too. And, but what I find with a lot of, and there I'm modeling that not only for like my own learning and growth, but I think it's a really important thing for, you know, schools administrators. Right. Saying like, Hey, well, like what's off here? Like, challenge me on what I just said. Like, you know, what, what's happening in this space? Because a lot of times, like I said, the challenges are like going into classrooms, talking to your colleagues and complaining mm-hmm. . But it doesn't change anything. It doesn't really help anyone. Right. But, but it's, but, but it's, it's, I'm not complaining about the teachers doing that. Sometimes it's the administrators that actually don't create an environment where they, people feel comfortable actually going through that. Like if I, you know, say something, I, I might lose my job. I might get in trouble. Mm-hmm. 

Speaker 1 (41:59):

. Right. And you talk about culture in, in both of your books, how important the culture is Yeah. Of, of growth and of, you know, trying things. Your books are full of, Hey, we tried this and it didn't work, or we tried this and it worked too great. Um, because that growth like that, I, I, all of your stuff is always about how are we gonna grow forward? How are we gonna move forward? Yeah. Um, I had an interesting experience in my own classroom where there were some things not working. So I went to the kids and said, Hey, just gimme some feedback here. You know, they're the ones sitting there. And I've heard you say several times, you know, I don't have to always be the expert in the classroom. And our kids have a lot of knowledge, a lot of, you know, excitement and expertise that we don't always have. And to give them the option as well to, um, learn to challenge an idea for something that might work better is a great way to teach our kids what it is to move out into the world outside of formal education as it is today. 

Speaker 2 (43:08):

Yeah. And I think, I think, I think for me, the one thing I do acknowledge, I always say like, the teacher is the expert in the classroom. And I think that's something that's really, but they're not the sole source of information. Yes. 

Speaker 1 (43:18):

Yes. 

Speaker 2 (43:18):

And the reason, the reason I say that and what I point to, and I think when we, if you really think about, a lot of times when we see speakers, we see people, uh, you know, talking at workshops, things like this. And we say like, oh, like teachers are not the sole source of information anymore. What should they point to Google, YouTube, Twitter, things like that. Right? They, but they don't necessarily say like, I'm like saying, well, yeah, those things of course. What about your kids? What about the experiences? Right? Mm-hmm. . And you go back to that experience when I talked about, uh, this was instilled in me literally from my first day of teaching when I walked into a high school technology class. And I would go there maybe 30 minutes before the class, try to get ahead of what we were gonna be doing that day. 

Speaker 2 (43:58):

But then saying to students like, I don't know. Hey, does anyone know how to do this? And then realizing, and these, and, and if anyone who's ever taught anything, maybe technology related, but probably anything, as soon as a kid figures out you don't know something and they can show you something, they don't say like, Ugh, this teacher is just doesn't know their stuff. They, they get an excitement of being able to like, share information Right. To, to feel valued. Right. And so that was something that was instilled in me. I would love to say it was intentional, but it was more like, Hey, this is the only way I'm making it through. 'cause I do not know enough about this stuff to teach this at the high school level. So if I don't count on these kids, I'm gonna be in trouble. And by the end of the year, uh, you know, I'd gained a lot of knowledge through connecting the kids. 

Speaker 2 (44:40):

And that was something that I always set up. Like even, uh, I remember when I was assistant principal, I had to teach health, which was like a throwaway class, right? Like, Hey, nobody's teaching how, so it's yours now. And I'm like, do I have to seriously teach middle school health? Like, I don't wanna do, this is not my area. So I actually just said to my students, I'm like, Hey, uh, here's a curriculum and uh, what we would like you to do is I want you to kind of go through the curriculum. I put it in student friendly language. I want you to tell me what you would like to teach. And, uh, you will prepare, uh, a lesson on teaching that component of health. And not only do you have to teach the lesson, you also, um, have to assess how your fellow students have done. 

Speaker 2 (45:20):

So this is my way of saying like, I don't wanna teach this class. I'm gonna get the kids to do it. That the more I can get out of this process, the better. And then, and then I was like, oh, the, the kids are actually really into this. Like, this is actually like, they're doing stuff I would've never done. It's like way better. Mm-hmm. . And, and like, I would love to say, like, again, I was such a visionary, so forward thinking, I was like, really about student ownership. It was like, I just don't want to teach this. I'm like super busy already with admin. Uh, and this is like a throwaway class. So like, they're not like no one really caress about the kids' health mark. 'cause it's like two to three classes a week kind of thing. Right. And I was just like, wow, this actually like, turned out amazing. This is probably one of the best classes I've ever, you know, I ever taught, you know Right. Quotation marks. Uh, because the kids had ownership. They, they want to go through the process and they see what their, you know, uh, their peers are doing and they want to top that class. You know, they kind of go through this and they were just more invested in the class because like Kelly did for me, I gave them ownership. Right, 

Speaker 1 (46:18):

Right. And that goes, so seeing 

Speaker 2 (46:19):

That, seeing that process Yeah. Is something that's really powerful. 

Speaker 1 (46:22):

Well, and that goes, I mean, we give our kids ownership administration gives us ownership. Like it moves in that way in its own, its own culture. In doing that, we give, you know, we give our kids a voice. So I have a question for you. Sure. Um, we want to kind of wrap this up a little bit by doing a speed round with you. Are you cool with that? Yes. Okay. So, um, if you could describe yourself in one word, what would it be? 

Speaker 2 (46:47):

. Well, after that story, I, I was gonna say lazy , so that's what the thing I'm thinking of. But, um, uh, I would say, uh, innovative. 

Speaker 1 (46:57):

Okay. What would your girls say you were 

Speaker 2 (47:00):

My daughters Uhhuh 

Speaker 1 (47:01):

. 

Speaker 2 (47:03):

Um, I hope loving. 

Speaker 1 (47:05):

Okay. So on your voicemail recording, what does it say right now? 

Speaker 2 (47:10):

I, well, okay, this is not a one word answer. I do not have voicemail 'cause I hate voicemail. 

Speaker 1 (47:15):

Oh, well there you go. That's, 

Speaker 2 (47:16):

Yeah, I actually don't, I disabled it. I hate it. So yeah, if you need to get ahold of me, you got text, 

Speaker 1 (47:22):

Text, text. Okay. 

Speaker 2 (47:24):

You can't even call me. 

Speaker 1 (47:25):

Can't even call me. I'm 

Speaker 2 (47:26):

Like, you know, those companies that are really annoying that say like, we don't have anyone that has phones here. We can only, we only phone out Uhhuh. . That's, that's, that's me in real life. That's you. Yeah. I only phone out no one. No good phobia. Yeah. I hate the phone. 

Speaker 1 (47:38):

So you told us the book that you were reading right now. What's your all time hands down favorite book that you would read for the rest of your life? 

Speaker 2 (47:50):

Oh, that I read for, uh, probably, um, probably How To Win Friends and Influence People would be up there. Uh, seven Habits of Highly Effective People would be there. 

Speaker 1 (48:01):

Favorite ice cream flavor? 

Speaker 2 (48:03):

Um, I would say, uh, chocolate chip and no, anything like a chocolate chip cookie dough. But there's gotta be something with peanut butter going on. 

Speaker 1 (48:14):

. Okay. Peanut butter. Yeah. That's awesome. That 

Speaker 2 (48:16):

Be peanut butter and something. So it's gotta be chunky and peanut butter. It's gotta be involved 

Speaker 1 (48:19):

Chunky and peanut butter. Okay. All right. All right. So last one. What would you want the log line of your life to be? 

Speaker 2 (48:29):

Is this like my tombstone? Is that what you're talking 

Speaker 1 (48:31):

About? Uhhuh? Yeah. Yep. 

Speaker 2 (48:33):

Um, wow. This one, this one. Is this a speed round? This is like 

Speaker 1 (48:37):

A pretty question. No, this like, 

Speaker 2 (48:38):

Question for like to zip through 

Speaker 1 (48:39):

This one. Yeah. No, you can, you don't have to zip through this one. 

Speaker 2 (48:41):

Yeah, I, uh, I, I just, uh, I would love it to say he inspired people to inspire people. That's, that's what I love is that I want to be, I want to be like Kelly. That's, that's my goal is to be that person that, and, and like, that's why I say don't, I don't tell anyone how to teach. Um, I just try to model stuff and I hope other people, uh, learn from my example, which is flawed in many ways. And, uh, but I always, I always want, I don't want to, I want, my hope is that I help people figure out their own way not to tell 'em where to go. 

Speaker 1 (49:20):

Well, thank you so much for spending your afternoon with us. I just appreciate your stories. Yeah, yeah. And, and again, um, just your new book because of a teacher. I mean, that's when, when we're stuck, that's that place we need to go back to. 'cause teachers are changing the world. Until next time, lean in and stay curious.